Religioscope - If we look at the religious map of
Africa as it evolved during the 20th century,
we can see that it has changed enormously between the beginning
and the end of the century. There have not been bigger changes
on any continent other than Africa. According to statistics
we observe a considerable decrease of traditional religions
while especially Christianity and Islam too have gained
ground. How far do those numbers tell really the story of
religion in Africa?
Stephen
Ellis - They obviously do tell a story and they are
interesting. Of course there are several things one would
have to say. One is that the population of Africa has increased
enormously from maybe 150 million people at the beginning
of the 20th century to more like 7 or 8 hundred
million people now. So there are perhaps six times as many
Africans now as there were at the beginning of the 20th
century. So it seems logical there are more Christians and
Muslims. It is also clear that in percentage terms there has
been a growth of the world religions.
The
conventional way of looking at it is to say people have converted
from African traditional religions to one of the great world
religions, Christianity or Islam, as part of the process of
becoming more modern. But I think that is unsatisfactory for
all sorts of reasons. First because there is a very well known
phenomenon in Africa, i.e. multiple religious allegiances.
In other words, somebody might describe himself as a Christian,
might go to church regularly or quite often, but still carry
out various traditional practises and not consider that contradictory
or hypocritical or anything like that.
Of
course there has always been a problem among Muslims in other
parts of the world and Christians in other parts of the world
who may think somehow Africans are not proper Christians,
not proper Muslims. I think actually there is a huge amount
of arrogance in that, in the sense that every continent, every
group of people assimilates religion in their own terms and
in a sense has a right to do so. If you come across an African
who goes to church sometimes, maybe an African church, but
also sacrifices to the ancestors or something like that, at
what point can you say this person is a Christian or not a
Christian? That is a very difficult question to answer.
So
there is the phenomenon of inculturation of world religions
in Africa, which is perfectly legitimate, but does pose problems
for other adherents of those religions. I suppose a classic
one would be something very centralized like Roman Catholicism.
If you get very considerable numbers of Roman Catholics in
Africa, which is the case, and if there is a feeling in the
Vatican that maybe some of them are not entirely orthodox,
then I believe there is a sort of power struggle going on.
That’s in a sense where I come in. I hope I am open-minded,
my interest is in politics really so I’ve become interested
in it as a phenomenon of power.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- One of the points clearly emphasised in your book on conflicts
and religious factors in Liberia is that traditional religions
continue to play a very important role in Africa today.
But at the same time traditional religion has experienced
such severe disruptions it has been changing too. And there
are some voices calling for a return to traditional religious
practises in order to restore some kind of social order
as well.
Stephen
Ellis - That’s right. It is widely noted that there
is a so-called religious revival in Africa. Now, revival might
not be the best word because religion has never been away
but you see for example clear phenomena of political Islam
in some countries like Sudan, so-called Islamic fundamentalism.
You also see very dynamic new Christian movements, charismatic
churches and so forth, not just making converts but also occupying
public space in terms of processions in the street, new churches
being opened, and also politicians openly identifying with
them. Like former President Chiluba in Zambia saying he’s
a born-again Christian, declaring that Zambia is now a Christian
nation, which is a very political gesture.
We
are also seeing a revival of traditional religions. Now that
poses all sorts of interesting questions about what do we
mean by traditional religion particularly in the case of Africa
where so-called traditional African religions are not based
on scriptures. It is simply a body of practices and beliefs,
which because it is oral is very flexible and absorptive.
You can absorb almost anything without a problem. There is
a quite self-conscious revival of African traditional religions
in some instances for example in Kenya with a revival of Kikuyu
religions, which has a very distinctive political overtone,
which recalls the days of Mau-Mau. But you are also seeing
some African so-called traditional religions taking on, in
the image of Christianity and Islam, a proselytising role,
seeking to convert people so you probably now have more adherents
of traditional Yoruba religion in New York than you have in
Lagos.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- We would tend to see African religions as being affected
by globalisation but actually they globalise as well including
African independent churches, which have now congregations
in various parts of the world.
Stephen
Ellis - Yes, that is right.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- As already mentioned, there are changes in the profile
of Christianity in Africa especially the huge impetus of
evangelicals. When did the development of evangelical movements
in Africa really develop full scale?
Stephen
Ellis - It’s very hard to say because of course some
of the mission churches, Anglicans, Baptists and so on, when
they came to Africa in the 19th century were in
full evangelical mood, coming straight from Europe, so you
could say they have always been evangelical. You get various
churches of the charismatic Pentecostal type, which have been
in Africa now for many decades since the early 20th century. It does however appear, to judge from the very fragmentary
statistics and from various anecdotes to have been a real
growth since the 1970s-1980s. It’s very difficult to be precise
about it and it’s very hard to say if this is something which
has been going on all the time and people like myself have
only recently become aware of it because I’m not a specialist
in religious studies? Or if it has been going on all the time
and it’s only become so apparent because as it were of what
has happened to African states? There has been a widespread
collapse of states in Africa. To a certain extent that leaves
churches in a much more obvious position as public institutions
than they were or they would be in times when states, bureaucratic
states on the European model, were functioning fairly normally.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- Do we see those evangelical groups developing not only
in traditionally Protestant mission areas but also in areas
in Africa where Catholic missionaries were predominantly
active during the colonial times or do we still see a pattern
of primary diffusion to Protestant areas?
Stephen
Ellis - That’s an interesting question. I haven’t
looked at it but I think probably both. All the so-called
mainline churches which I use as shorthand to designate those
churches which were originally led by European missionaries
and implanted in Africa in colonial times, like the Anglicans,
the Catholics, the Methodists and so on – all of them seem
to feel a degree of competition coming from newer churches
of the charismatic/Pentecostal varieties and all of them have
assimilated this in the sense that they have become more Pentecostal
and charismatic themselves. In some cases, like some of the
mainstream Protestant churches, this is simply a question
of going back to their roots. But in other cases, like the
Catholics, it means probably taking ways of thinking and practices
they haven’t known or have regarded as peripheral for many
centuries. And they have great problems with this.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- Actually we have other groups that are quite important
in Africa, the African-initiated churches. We have so many
churches, which were born in Africa, and some of them grew
to be quite large movements, sometimes with international
following. Do we see the phenomena of those African independent
churches all over Africa or predominantly in some areas
of Africa?
Stephen
Ellis - I think they are all over Africa. You might
find more in some places than others. For example, I think
I am right in saying that in Rwanda before the genocide there
were comparatively few African-initiated churches. Rwanda
has a very particular history. The Catholic Church was extremely
strong and it was combined with a really very thoroughly organized
state so there wasn’t very much space as it was for creating
independent churches. But I think in general they are all
over Africa.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- How would you describe the independent African churches
for readers who are not very familiar with Africa? What
are their main features?
Stephen
Ellis - Technically they are simply churches that
have been founded by an African and without any direct link
to any of the historically European-led churches, which generally
means churches that were led by European missionaries coming
to Africa in colonial times, so-called mainstream churches.
One of their characteristics is that they’re independent,
financially, juridically and so on, of the historic missionary
churches. Secondly, there are theological aspects. Thirdly,
I suppose they place a great deal of attention on healing,
and I think that is one of the things that make them very
popular. And beyond that it would be very hard for me to say
because they vary so very much.
They
are often perceived, by many Europeans, including European
missionaries and European academics, as being somehow disorganized,
in the sense of likely to split: they are always independent
of one another, you often get people splitting off from one
church and starting a new one and this can give an impression
of disorganization. It is probably unfair, in the sense that
many of these churches begin with somebody claiming to have
had a message, a dream or something like that to start a church.
So what is more normal than that they should go and do so,
it is not necessarily seen as a schism.
It
should also be said it is often considered by sceptical outsiders
that you can too easily become the leader of an independent
church. And it is true you can set up a church without any
kind of permission and you do get a number of people who are
more interested in money than anything else setting up their
own churches in parts of Africa. But I wouldn’t want to exaggerate
that, even though it happens. But I wouldn’t want to say they
are all like that. Imagine there were a church led by somebody
that people feel is an impostor, a charlatan. The church is
not going to last very long, people will simply stop going.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- Going to African countries and see the roads full of people
on Sunday going to church we have a feeling of a continent
with a vibrant religious life. Compared to Europe do you
think theories of secularisation do not apply to Africa?
Stephen
Ellis - We have been brought up in societies where
there has been a steady loss of religious belief in most of
Western Europe. Moreover I think we have been brought up to
believe actively or not so actively in theories of modernization
whereby we think the more developed a country becomes, then
the less religious it becomes or at least religion will be
accorded a rather private role. In other words it is not a
public thing, it is certainly not a political thing, it is
a matter of private belief. Do you want to go to church? Well,
that’s up to you. That is certainly not the case in Africa,
where religion is absolutely vibrant as much now as ever,
maybe more than ever, but certainly there are no signs of
a loss of dynamism.
But
it is also not the case with the United States which many
people would consider in some ways one of the world’s most
developed countries seen by many as leader in politics, as
the world’s only super power. America has very high percentages
of people expressing belief in God, attending some religious
service regularly, describing themselves as members of some
religious group, including notably in the government itself,
to start with the Attorney General. We can think of other
places, like Pakistan and India, where religion is very important.
There are even political parties with strong religious affiliation.
And these countries now have nuclear bombs so we can’t regard
them somehow as backward. In short, analysts have to literally
be post-modern. Regarding a lot of our received ideas about
modernization, development, we have to literally be able to
say this happens not to be correct. We have got to rethink
what is going on in those parts of the world that were formerly
colonized and were considered to be on a road to some sort
of development. We have got to rethink the whole notion.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- Then we see Africa as a place of conflicts where religions
play a role. We have the reports of the past few months
about Nigeria and sometimes very violent clashes between
Christian and Muslim groups. Do we have an African continent
where we will see in the future an increasing number of
militant religious organizations, Muslim and Christian,
clashing with each other? Is this to some extent a prefiguration
of the future of Africa, increasing radicalisation of opposing
religious groups competing with each other? Or is this a
very pessimistic view of what the future holds for Africa?
Stephen
Ellis - I think it is a very pessimistic view of what
the future holds, but of course nobody knows what the future
holds. It all depends upon what politicians in particular
make of religion. We have these images from Nigeria, which
are not inventions; indeed Muslims and Christians have been
fighting each other in central Nigeria in particular in recent
times. Nigeria is one country in Africa with a long history
of politicised religion going back to pre-colonial times.
You also have in West Africa places like Sierra Leone, Liberia
and others where, even in situation of war, Christians and
Muslims live alongside each other. Even in the same family
it is not at all uncommon in these places to find a man who
is, let’s say, Muslim, whose wife is Christian and whose children
are some Muslims and some Christians and people converting
from one religion to the other. That is not at all uncommon.
The last president of Senegal, Abdou Diouf, was a Muslim but
his wife was a Christian. You have this very commonly throughout
Africa so you couldn’t think of a more perfect harmony between
the main religions and also traditional religions.
But
of course if the power of religion to mobilize people is used
for political purposes, especially in situations of conflict
then you can get people fighting each other with the badge
of religion. Then it becomes extremely difficult to say if
this is this really a political conflict or is it really a
religious conflict? I have often thought about this with relation
to Northern Ireland, as a British person myself, and some
people will say to you: “Look. This is a religious conflict
which takes on a political form”, and some people will say:
“No, this is a political conflict taking on a religious form”.
I think the latter is true in the sense that if you take Northern
Ireland for example ultimately it is a contest about political
identity. Do you consider yourself as an Irish citizen? Or
do you consider yourself as a British citizen? And it happens
that this corresponds with Catholics and Protestants.
Now
you have similar situations in Nigeria and some other places
with the whole history that goes with it of course. So for
example very serious fighting in the city of Jos (Nigeria)
in September 2001 was described as Christian against Muslim.
It was indeed to a large degree, but there were also Muslims
killing other Muslims. It was about who really runs Jos. Is it local people and southerners or is it people from northern
Nigeria? Among the southerners there is a significant number
of Muslims also killed. So in the end you can say religion
had something to do with it, but this was really a political
struggle.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- Despite the fact that some of those clashes were originally
attributed to the will of local governments to implement
the sharia?
Stephen
Ellis - In the case of the Jos riots, which happens
to be the one I am quite well informed about, it was not because
of the local government imposing sharia. Jos City, which is
largely Christian and has had a reputation for tolerance over
many decades, had received many displaced people coming from
states where sharia had been imposed. And some people who
didn’t like this were literally moving to a place where they
were seeking refuge and that of course changed not only the
composition of the population, with many displaced people
arriving in the city, but also very charged, because people
were coming with all sorts of stories about sharia. So clearly
the introduction of sharia in some Nigerian states, whatever
one thinks of it in religious terms, is a highly political
action.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- You mentioned before the fact that many churches in Africa
remain the sole real structure existing in Africa. How far
are they concretely able to contribute to peace building
in Africa? What have been, for example, success stories
in recent years?
Stephen
Ellis - Very difficult question to answer for various
reasons. It is true that in some parts of Africa, I guess
the leading example would be Congo, the Catholic Church is
the only reasonably coherent nationwide infrastructure and
therefore it functions as a post office. People will go to
a Catholic Church in a part of the Congo and leave a message
and sometime later it will be transmitted to somebody else
in another part of the country because there is no working
national postal service. So it has great importance just as
an infrastructure.
In
various parts of Africa, of course, church leaders, and for
that matter Muslim leaders and maybe other religious leaders
too have been prominent in talks about peace in situations
where there had been conflict. They have intervened with different
degrees of success in different places. If you take South
Africa, for example, the church has played quite a significant
role in ending apartheid. I cannot say they played the leading
role, because obviously organs of state power were absolutely
crucial. But they played a leading role; and of course the
Truth and Reconciliation Commission, about which a great deal
has been written, was very much a Christian thing. There were
also non-Christians involved, but it was a very much religiously
inspired movement, led by a former archbishop and seconded
by a former head of the Methodist Church, so it was very much
a religious initiative.
And
in different places you’ve had efforts at mediation or peacemaking
with varying degrees of success. I am racking my brains to
think of a really good example of a successful one. The Sant'Egidio
community, from Italy, played a leading role in Mozambique.
Recently, there has been an interesting peace movement in
Angola, where the Catholic Church has been playing an important
part.
In
a country which I know well, which is Liberia, the churches
combined with the leaders of the Muslim communities to take
a leading and admirable role in attempts at mediation. It
wasn’t entirely successful, I am afraid to say, because the
war went on for a very long time in Liberia and it is still
a troubled country to this day, but certainly the churches
and also Muslim leaders played a very significant role.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- There are several people especially in Christian circles
who sometimes claim there is progression of Islam towards
parts of Africa which lie more to the South. Does this correspond
to reality or is it a myth?
Stephen
Ellis - I think it is true. I don’t have any figures
at hand and even if I did have they would be eminently debatable
because generally speaking you don’t get very accurate statistics
on this type of thing. And as I have said you do get in Africa
a phenomena of multiple religious affiliations, so just because
so many percent of the population are Christians, it doesn’t
therefore mean that the rest are Muslims or traditional believers
because the people might be two at once. Definitely, if you
look at the map of Africa there are areas where Islam was
always either not present or very much a minority religion,
maybe associated with foreigners or with very small groups
of the population, where it is definitely thriving and I would
certainly say growing numbers; for example Mozambique probably
and Rwanda certainly, the Ivory Coast, maybe even Ghana, those
would all be examples.
[TOP]
Religioscope
- Do you see in recent years new religious players coming
into the African scene, in addition to traditional religion,
Islam, Christianity in their various forms?
Stephen
Ellis - As we have already discussed, you have new
churches coming up all the time initiated by Africans inside
Africa. You also have new churches originating in other parts
of the world coming to Africa from Brazil, from America, from
Korea and so on. You also have non-Christian and for that
matter non-Muslim movements with origins outside Africa getting
some followers in Africa. I have no way of knowing on what
scale this is taking place but I have seen people in West
Africa who appeared to be converts to some form of Buddhism
or Hindu religion, wearing saffron robes and so on. I have
really got no way of knowing on what scale that exists. I
am sure this is happening. Because of the increases generally
in relations between Africa and Asia in particular.
Logically
I would imagine in the future we are going to see more Africans
becoming interested in aspects of Asian civilization including
religion and maybe more active efforts by Asians to proselytise
in Africa, Muslims, Buddhists or others. But we are also seeing
to some extent African traditional religions proselytising
in other parts of the world, notably of course in North America
where Americans of African origin, African Americans, might
find that very attractive.
