        
Document
THE
UNRELEASED INTERVIEW
WITH USAMAH BIN LADEN
21st October 2001
Part
3
Tayseer
Allouni: So you say that this is treatment with
the same action? They kill our innocent, so we kill
theirs?
Usamah
bin Laden:
Yes, so we kill their innocents, and that is valid both
religiously and logically. Because some of the people
who talk about this issue, some talk about it from a
religious point of view...
[TOP]
UBL:
They say that this is wrong and invalid [laa yajuz],
and for proof, they say that the Prophet (sallallahu
`alayhi wasallam) forbade the killing of children
and women, and that is true. It is valid and has been
said by the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam)
(in authentic narration)...
[TOP]
TA:
This is what we are asking about exactly! This is what
we are exactly questioning ourselves about!
UBL:
...But this forbiding of killing children and innocents...
is not general [mutlaqan] and there are other
writings that uphold it [nusus ukhra tuqayiduhu].
Allah's
(subhannahu wa ta'aala) saying:
"And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers
in the Oneness of Allah), then punish them with the
like of that with which you were afflicted..."
[Qur'an (16):126]
The
scholars and people of the knowledge [ahlu al-`ilm],
amongst them 'Sahib al-Ikhtiyarat', and Ibn al-Qayyim
(rahimahullah), and Shawkaani, and a lot of others,
and Qurtubi (rahimahullah) in his tafseer,
say that if the disbelievers were to kill our children
and women, then we should not feel ashamed to do the
same to them, mainly to detter them from trying to kill
our children and women again. And that is from a religious
standpoint, and those who speak without any knowledge
in sharee`ah, saying that killing such a child
is not valid and what not, and having full knowledge
that those young men, that Allah has cleared the way
for, didn't intend to kill children, but instead, they
attacked the biggest center of military power in the
world, the Pentagon, which contains more than 64,000
workers, a military base which has a big concentration
of army and intelligence...
[TOP]
*Interrupted*
TA:
What about the World Trade Center...?
UBL:
As for the World Trade Center, the ones who were attacked
and who died in it were a financial power. It wasn't
a children's school! And it wasn't a residence. And
the general consensus is that most of the people who
were in there were men that backed the biggest financial
force in the world that spreads worldwide mischief [ta`ithu
fil ardi fasaadaa]. And those individuals should
stand for Allah, and to re-think and re-do their calculations.
We treat others like they treat us. Those who kill our
women and our innocent, we kill their women and innocent,
until they stop from doing so.
[TOP]
TA:
But now, Shaykh Usamah, the media outlets and the
security services also, say that you lead a network
with a very big reach, which spreads over 40 or 50
countries as some say, and that the al-Qai`dah Organization
has very big capabilities, and that you use those
capabilities a lot to order missions. That you support
many Islamic Organizations or movements, which are
called in some places "terroristic." The
question that we ask you is, what is the magnitude
of the involvement of the al-Qai`dah Organization,
or what is the type of involvement that exists between
the al-Qai`dah Organization and with the personality
of Usamah bin Laden?
UBL:
Alhamdulillah. I say in response to what you
said, and which I have stated before, that this matter
isn't about any specific person [laa yakhussu al-`abd
al-faqir, lit. doesnt involve the poor servant],
and that it is not about the al-Qai`dah Organization.
We are the children of an Islamic Nation, with Prophet
Muhammad (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) as its
leader, our Lord is one (subhannahu wa ta`aala),
our Prophet is one (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam),
our Qibla (the direction Muslims face during prayer)
is one, we are one nation [ummah], and our Book
(the Qur'an) is one. And this blessed Book, with
the tradition [Sunnah] of our generous Prophet
(sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), has religiously
commanded us [alzamatna] with the brotherhood
of faith [ukhuwat al-imaan], and all the true
believers [mu'mineen] are brothers.
So
the situation isn't like the West portrays it, that
there is an "organization" with a specific
name (such as "al-Qai`dah") and so on. That
particular name is very old. It was born without any
intention from us. Brother Abu Ubaida (rahimahullah)
al-Banshiri [Panjshiri, which is a a large valley
north of Kabul populated by Tajiks] created a military
base to train the young men to fight against the vicious,
arrogant, brutal, terrorizing Soviet empire, which was
a truth to all observers [al-baghi, al-ghaashim,
al-mulhid, al-irhaabi haqiqatan lil mu'aamilin].
So this place was called "The Base" ["Al-Qai`dah"],
as in a training base, so this name grew and became.
We aren't separated from this nation [ummah].
We are the children of a nation, and we are an unseperable
part of it, and from those public demonstrations which
spread from the far east, from the Philippines, to Indonesia,
to Malaysia, to India, to Pakistan, reaching Mauritania...
and so we discuss the conscience of this nation [ummah].
These
young men that have sacrificed their selves - may Allah
accept them - in New York and Washington, those are
the ones that speak the truth about the conscience of
this nation [al-mutahaddithun `an dameer hathihi
al-ummah], and they are its vibrant conscience that
sees that it is imperative to take revenge from the
evildoers and transgressors and criminals and terrorists
[al-thalim, al-baghi, al-mujrim, al-irhaabi]
that terrorize the true believers. So not all terrorism
is restrained or ill-advised [mathmoom]. There
is terrorism that is ill-advised and there is terrorism
that is good feat [mahmood]. So, if we follow
their words, the criminal and the thief feels that he
is terrorized from the police. So, do we tell the police
that they are terrorists and that they terrorized the
thief? No, so the terrorism of the police towards the
criminals is good feat, and the terrorism that is being
exercised by the criminals on the true believers, that
is wrong and ill-advised [mathmoom]. So America
and Israel practice ill-advised terrorism, and we practice
terrorism that is good feat, which deters those [yarda`]
from killing our children in Palestine and other places...
[TOP]
TA:
Alright, Shaykh Usamah, what is your strategy concerning
the Arab states? What is being seen is that some Arab
states have discussed what happened in New York and
Washington and they have backed the American claims
against you, and by standing behind what happened
in New York and Washington. Some Arab states were
most strong in their criticism, like for example the
latest speech of the Saudi Interior Minister, who
warned against you personally, and warned against
the following of your curriculum [nahjikum]
and what you say. So do you have a specific strategy
for Arab nations? And what is your answer about the
latest declaration by the Saudi Interior Minister?
UBL:
I assure that we are a part of this nation [ummah],
that our goal is the victory of our nation, and the
struggle to lift mischief, inequality, irresponsibility
and the acceptance of staying away from them [dhul,
dhulm, hawaan, wal qunuu` `anha], and the removal
of the man-made laws that America has forced on its
agents in the area so that this nation [ummah]
could be ruled by the Book that has been sent down by
its Creator, Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala).
So
I listened to some of the words of the Interior Minister
and he blamed us directly, also saying that "those
people call Muslims disbelievers" [yukaffiruna
al-muslemeen] - we seek Allah's refuge from this
[ma`athallah min thalik]! We think that the Muslims
are Muslims, and we don't call any Muslims disbelievers
unless they specifically commit one of the well-known
big wrongdoings [naaqitha] of Islam, while having
full knowledge that this is one of the actions of wrongdoings
in religion.
So
I say that, in general, our concern is that this nation
[ummah] unites either under the Words of the Book of
Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala) or His Prophet (sallallahu
`alayhi wasallam), and the movement of this nation
to the establishment of the righteous Khilafah of the
nation [ummah], which has been prophesized by
our Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) in
his hadeeth saheeh [narrated by at-Tirmidhi],
that the righteous Khilafah will return with
the permission of Allah (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam),
and the nation [ummah] is asked to unite itself under
this Crusaders' campaign, the strongest, most powerful,
and most ferocious [ashad wa a`naf wa ashras]
Crusaders' campaign to fall on the Islamic nation [ummah]
since the dawn of Islamic history. There has been past
Crusader wars, but there has never been a campaign like
this one before.
So
Bush has declared with his own tongue (words): "Crusade
attack." [Usamah bin Laden pronounced these
words in English] So the odd in this is that they
have said what we didn't have to say (that this war
is a crusade). Some people also believe, as it is
said about us, like the Minister's words, that we make
takfeer on Muslims - we seek Allah's refuge from this
[ma`athallahu min thaalik]! But, when Bush speaks,
people make apologies for him and they say that he didn't
mean that this war is a Crusade, even though he said
himself that it was a Crusade!!
So
the image of the world today is split in two parts,
like Bush said, either you are with us, or you are with
terrorism. Either you are with the Crusade, or you are
with Islam. Bush's image today is of him being in front
of the line, carrying his big cross while yelling. And
I swear by Allah Almighty, that whomever walks behind
Bush or his plan, has rejected the teachings [millah]
of Muhammad (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), and
this ruling is one of the clearest of rulings in the
Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallallahu
`alayhi wasallam), and I advise, like I have advised
before and like a lot of scholars have advised before,
that the proof for this is the Almighty's words while
speaking to the true believers:
"O
you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians
as Auliyaa' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they
are but Auliyaa' to one another. And if any amongst
you takes them as Auliyaa', then surely he is one of
them..." and this is the ruling: "And if any
amongst you takes them as Auliyaa', then surely he is
one of them..." "Verily, Allah guides not
those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists, wrong-doers,
and unjust)." [Qur'an (5):51]
The
scholars of knowledge have said, whomever takes the
disbelievers as friends, protectors, and leaders [awliya']
has become a disbeliever [qad kafara], and the
biggest signs of alliance [wilaayah] is favoring
their victory [al-munaasarah], in speaking, discussing
and writing [fil qawli, wafil sinaani wa fil bayaan].
So whoever walks behind Bush and his campaign against
the Muslims, then he has disbelieved [kafara] in Allah
(subhannahu wa ta`aala) and His Prophet (sallallahu
`alayhi wasallam), and Allah also says in the verse
[aayah] that follows the previous one:
"And
you see those in whose heart there is a disease (of
hypocrisy), they hurry to their friendship, saying:
'We fear lest some misfortune or disaster may befall
us.' Perhaps Allah may bring a victory or a decision
according to His Will. Then they will become regretful
for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves.
And those who believe will say: 'Are these the men (hypocrites)
who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were
with you (Muslims)?' All that they did has been in vain
(because of their hypocrisy), and they have become the
losers." [Qur'an (5):52-53]
Ibn
Katheer (rahimahullah) has said in his tafseer:
There was a lot of Companions [Sahaabah] who
didn't know that the spearhead of the hypocrites [munafiqoon]
was the disbeliever [kaafir] and the hypocrite
[munafiq], `Abdullah ibn Ubayy ibn Salul. So
when the arguments happened between the Muslims and
the Jews, and when the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi
wasallam) decided the punish the Jews, the spearhead
of hypocrisy [nifaaq] (`Abdullah ibn Ubayy) moved
and stood with the Jews, and he stood in the way of
the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) with
the Jews, so these verses [aayat] came down for
this reason, and its likes. So the ones who take the
disbelievers as leaders, friends, and protectors [yatawallawna
allathi kafaru], then they have disbelieved in the
Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala) and His Prophet,
so I add the following verse, to stress what I previously
stated, because the one who has taken the disbelievers
as leaders [tawalla al-kaafirin] has become an
apostate [qad irtad], so this verse came down:
"O
you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from
his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom
He will love and they will love Him; humble towards
the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting
in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of
the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows
on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His
creatures' needs, All-Knower." [Qur'an (5):54]
So
I tell the Muslims, to be very weary and careful from
befriending Jews and Christians, and whomever helps
them with one word, let him be devout to Allah, and
to renew his faith so he can repent about what he did...
[TOP]
UBL:
Even the word, whomever upholds [yu'ayiduhum] them with
one word...
[TOP]
TA:
Falls into this apostasy??
UBL:
Falls into apostasy [yaka`u fil ridda], a terrible
apostasy, and there is no might nor power except with
Allah [walla hawla wala quwata illah billah]...
[TOP]
TA:
But Shaykh, a big part of the nation [ummah]
falls into this...
UBL:
No... No, it is not a big part. This is the rule of
Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala), and a clear statement
in His generous Book, and it is one of the clearest
of rulings!
[TOP]
TA:
And the Arab and Islamic governments...?
UBL:
Anyone that.... it is no use for you to say Amr or Zayd
[meaning, "so and so"]. If you know
the truth, you will know its followers. You will not
know the truth by looking at men [laa ta`rif al-haqqa
bilrijaal]. This is the Book of Allah (subhannahu
wa ta`aala) which is one of the constants for us.
If the world became full of people who want to change
things in it, that won't affect us, and it won't change
our convictions at all. It is either truth or it is
mischief [baatil]. Either it is Islam or either
is it disbelief [kufr]. So these verses...
[TOP]
*Interrupted*
TA:
Just to make things clear, if you please. Isn't it possible
to forgive those states that are considered to be impotent
and weak [maghluub `ala amrihaa, lit. whos command
has been defeated]. Let us take the state of Qatar,
for example. The state of Qatar is a small state, whose
Foreign Minister once said that he is surrounded by
a supreme force that can wipe out his existence in all
ease. Therefore, he is forced to become an ally of America
and others. Isn't it possible to forgive such states?
Like Kuwait, for example? Or Bahrain?
UBL:
Concerning these matters, the matters that concern Islam,
the matters concerning the killing of true believers
[mu'mineen] and Muslims... so what the previously
mentioned people do, who use compulsion [ikrah, meaning,
force or being forced] as an excuse, that is not
the same compulsion [ikrah] that is allowed by
Islamic Law [sharee`ah]. That compulsion is not
religiously allowed [yu`tabar shar`an
Now let's say (for example), if the Emir of Qatar came
and he ordered one of his men to kill your son, then
we came to that soldier asking him why he killed the
son of brother Tayseer, so he says: "Well brother,
I am forced to do it! [yaa akhee, ana mukrah]
And you know brother Tayseer, that you mean a great
deal to me, but I am obligated (forced to kill your
son)! [ana mukrah]". So the blood of
the Muslims will be lost with these kind of excuses,
with this compulsion [ikrah] that isn't backed
by the Islamic Law [sharee`ah]. The soul of that
soldier isn't better than the soul of your son. If he
is killed, he will be killed by violation and oppression
[wa huwa mathluman], but he (the soldier) isn't allowed
to obey the Tyrant (!) by killing your son. So this
compulsion [ikrah] isn't religiously allowed.
This
interview was obtained from Markaz
Derasat and translated by 'Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan'
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